Matt Legault (00:00)
Yeah, yeah, I'm off today. Obviously it's New Year's and then off
Obviously I know what's wired to the LMV5 Now where do those wires go to the terminal strips? You know, instead of tracing out every wire, I was able to kind of find that all out and make my own little wiring diagram.
Yeah, we got all the bells and whistles, O2 trim, VFD, FGR, which is not really something you run into a lot here in Alabama.
Eric Johnson (00:31)
How are you setting up O2 trim with the LMV5
Matt Legault (00:36)
moved to Alabama about four years ago. So I started my boiler life in β California. So we were obviously low NOx ultra low NOx, sub nine NOx. So that's where I worked years and years out there, then moved to Texas and we...
company I was looking for in Texas, we were big like Weishaupt reps. Obviously we were doing a lot of LMV5s Basically the way I do it is I go in and I set the alarm curve at 2%. Now Weishaupt does teach you to basically take the O2 as low as you can before you start making CO. β I've run a lot of Weishaupt burners all the way down to 0 % O2 and not make CO.
Now obviously we don't want to be at 0 % or two. But so I kind of just, cause you can go in there and cold set that you don't have to set that while it's running. So I set that usually around 2%. This is a Webster burner. So I'm actually going to kind of play with it and see to JBEX So I'm going to see where we're going to start making CO. And then I usually put in
the actual curve. I usually just set that around like five, six to 5 % O2 because when you set that actual O2 trim curve, you have to be 1 % lower than every point. And, you know, obviously you access there and everything. We're trying to get down to 3 % O2, you know, around 20 % firing rate. So we're going to see how that all works out.
I've never done it with one these Webster burners, so it's going to be a learning experience.
Eric Johnson (02:26)
in my experience, I've just had the most trouble with LMV5s with the O2 trim, β like no matter what you do.
it will alarm out randomly and
Matt Legault (02:38)
Yes.
So I always send it to that upon deactivate, which without having the manual in front of me right now, β it kind of eliminates that problem to where it will just deactivate itself. So it's pretty much not doing no two trim anymore.
Eric Johnson (02:59)
Yeah, then, but it displays
a message on the AZL that O2 trim is deactivated and your customer calls you like, hey, do I need to worry about this? Like, what's going on with this? And you're like, well, it's savings we kind of sold you, but I found that most customers just don't, all they care about is uptime. And if O2 trim isn't working and it's like not.
Matt Legault (03:08)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (03:28)
Like if there's just random issues or just like, just shut it off. Like we don't care because the production manager, whoever isn't paying the gas bill and nobody cares if they're saving 10 grand a month with a little bit of O2 trim. So that's, I mean, I could read or recite the LMV5 manual back to you, but the O2 trim is just, hopefully with the LMV6
Matt Legault (03:34)
Yes.
Yeah, no, and.
Eric Johnson (03:57)
they vastly improve the stability of it and ease of setting it up, because right now it's super complicated.
Matt Legault (04:06)
Yeah, no, and I agree with you 100%. I mean, it's like Autoflame with their EGAs. You got to pull them off the wall every four to six months and send them back in and they're gone for three years or three months. And β in my opinion, really the only good O2 trim systems out there, you know, on your PLC based CCS systems. β Fireye is not bad β for the PPC systems.
platform. I haven't seen anything from Honeywell. I've yet to see a Honeywell slate.
Eric Johnson (04:42)
how'd you get, you're in your 40s, how'd you get into boilers or combustion?
Matt Legault (04:49)
So I started off as an electrician and I got my buddy a job and we did a commercial, we were like doing grocery store remodels. So we worked graveyard shifts and he disappeared after three days. And I didn't know if he was dead or alive. He wouldn't answer my phone calls. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, so he called me like three months later and said he was working as a laborer at a boiler company.
And so they wanted to hire technicians that had electrical background. And I went in and interviewed and I mean, the funny story, you know, for me is at the end of the interview, they asked me, they're like, do you have any questions for us? And I was like, yeah, what's a boiler? I've heard of them. know, I, you know, I took my, my girlfriend to see Titanic, but, uh, yeah. So they hired me and.
Here I am 19 years later and I look back now and I can't believe I didn't blow anything up or kill somebody.
Eric Johnson (05:53)
I'm interested in this because this whole like blue collar versus white collar college versus no college. How'd you get into the electrical and well one, did you finish high school? Because that's not always β absolute with lots of people. And in high school,
Matt Legault (06:11)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (06:14)
Were you like, I'm definitely not going to college or I mean, I don't even know. Did you go to college or any college after? Okay. No college.
Matt Legault (06:19)
No. Yeah, no, was not.
Yeah, yeah. So now I finished high school. β I did like a year. I think I did like a year of community college, but it just it wasn't for me. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. β My dad was an air conditioning HVAC guy, β but he he unfortunately passed away when I was in high school, but he pushed on me.
You need to go to college. You don't need to do what I, what I do. but I just, I had a lucky break to get into an electrical company and I started off actually as their delivery driver. Did that for like a year. And then I was like, Hey, I want to go on the field. And they were like, okay. And so I did that for, yeah. You know, three and a half years, but I mean, you know, there is that debate of, you know,
people pushing people to college, but if you can come out and get into a trade, you come out out of debt, you're not in debt, you don't have that school loans and everything, and you can make a lot of money. I mean, even at 42, I still make more money than most of my friends that went to college, and I'm still not paying off student loan debts.
Eric Johnson (07:41)
Yeah, just the important thing about the debate is it's not a lot of people treat it as binary and they also quote the statistics of the extremes. So they'll say like, β you'll have 150 grand in student loan debt. Well, that's not the average. The average is like 40. But and then they'll also say for the blue collar, you'll make 100 grand. And it's like, well, you can. But there are a lot of companies who
treat their blue collar workers very very poorly and basically say hey you're worth 25 bucks an hour and here's a 10 cent raise for existing and people that have been there for 30 years are barely cracking 30 bucks an hour and you know there's this whole dichotomy of it but you know you and I can't fix that but it's important to keep in the conversation. β
Matt Legault (08:34)
Well, see, see,
so I would disagree with you on that just because, so I started, like I said, in California, β moved to Texas, then moved to Alabama. β
Since California, I've been well above $30 an hour.
Eric Johnson (08:52)
Yeah, I'm not saying you and in the boiler field, combustion field, people are way above that. β It is very prevalent in residential or like industrial maintenance, like a general maintenance worker who may work in a factory for like a big public company. They treat, most often they treat their employees like they're expendable and...
Matt Legault (09:00)
Okay. Yeah.
Eric Johnson (09:20)
They're, it's basically like, you know, they'll say like, Hey, hire in at $28.50 or whatever. Uh, and it's like, all right, well, you know, what's the top out? Well, if you worked here 10 years or 30 years, the max rate you can ever get is 32 bucks an hour. It's like, so in 30 years, I can maybe work up to $32 an hour. Like, Oh boy. And yeah, it's.
There's just a huge difference, but in combustion, especially in commercial industrial, since there is less people and it is more, I don't want to say high stakes because everything is high stakes, but it is more technically a little bit more technically advanced. It is easier to get above and into different pay rates beyond the average of like general. And that's because
Matt Legault (09:48)
you
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (10:17)
you're learning a skill and a
very, very marketable skill. Like, hey, I can fix boilers, I can do combustion, and it's very defined. Whereas like a general handyman, they're like, hey, I can fix stuff. β okay. Like there's a lot of stuff out there. Like what can you actually do? And I have found that people who can say they can fix anything are very average versus the people that are like,
I'm very good at this and I avoid that.
Matt Legault (10:48)
Yeah, and well, and I would even say you run into that even in our industry where because I mean, like in my company, like right now we have guys that they refuse to work on parallel positioning.
And, you know, they're like, we're linkage guys. And then some of them aren't even really all that good at linkage. And, you know, those are usually the older guys. And even in our industry, I feel like, I feel like it's a dying industry on the work side, but not the steam side. mean, boilers are always going to be around, but we are losing people that know anything about it.
I mean, I used to be one of the younger guys in the trade and now I'm kind of like in the middle to older side of the trade, even though I'm only 42. It's kind of alarming to see like the young guys coming in and you know, or even some of the older guys and especially like I said, hopping around states and hopping around the country. mean, you know, these companies I've worked for, I've gone all over the country and it's...
kind of scary to see the lack of knowledge in the industry.
Eric Johnson (12:07)
Yeah, I mean, the only thing that I tell myself to help me feel better is that is across, seems to be across all industries. There's no industry that is like, β man, we just have so many skilled, qualified people. They're just everywhere. Just everything's great. Like if you look in the medical field, it's the same thing where, but.
Matt Legault (12:29)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, as short
as doctors and nurses and...
Eric Johnson (12:36)
Yeah, so what made you go from California to Texas?
Matt Legault (12:42)
Basically to get out of California
Eric Johnson (12:45)
All right, I'll do it. β
what would you say is your specialty as far as boilers? What would you prefer to work on as far as size and I would assume steam boilers?
Matt Legault (13:04)
Yeah. Well, I mean,
more of my specialty now is I'm more into the, like the fully metered system, the PLC stuff. I'm, trying to grow my career. So I literally took an online course to learn PLCs and stuff. that's more of my specialty now. You know, we're talking like big industrial water tube, you know, register burners and stuff like that now.
Yeah, I just started one up a couple of weeks ago, a rental boiler for my company, you know, 75,000 pound an hour water tube with a faber burner with, you know, PLC controls. But you know, like what I'm working on right now, you know, what we were discussing the other day is, you know, it's just a simple little. Unilux I think it's like a 15 million BTU Webster on it with a Siemens LMV5 So, you know, my, my range is.
All over the place. mean, a couple of weeks ago, they had me on a service call with some Lochinvars I'm starting to not like those Lochinvars, Raypacks and everything much anymore because you can't really troubleshoot them. Everything's going back to a circuit board and you can't really, you know, if you go into the manual and it's like, Oh, if I'm selling this code, replace this, if someone this code replaced that. don't like that.
I like to troubleshoot. I'm not a parts changer, but when you start working on those little things like that, it's that's kind of where it's going. And, but, you know, like, yeah, you know, I go out and, know, the PLC is throwing me a code. I can actually hunt something down and say, Oh, it's the low gas pressure switch or, you know, we're in a bad situation. got a bad input or, you know, output card, you know, that's really getting bad, but.
You know, stuff like that. But, no, they kind of run us through the gamut. Yeah, like I said, one day I'll be working on
BTU Lochinvar that's heating in a hotel. And the next day I'm working on a 75,000 pound an hour water tube that's running a hospital campus.
Eric Johnson (15:17)
how would you say that you learned boilers? So you had an electrical background, pretty light electrical background, couple years, and then you got into boilers and how would you, what was your path to now feel comfortable in front of a fully metered water tube?
Matt Legault (15:39)
So, β Electrical actually lucked out. I got hooked up with one of our top foremans and we were actually running all the refrigeration controls. So that's where I actually started learning controls. β You know, I wasn't just hanging light. I mean, we did some nights, we were just hanging lights, but we were doing all the refrigeration controls. So I had a slight control background.
So when I came into Boilers, it was, I rode around with a guy for about two weeks and then he went out with a back injury and they tossed me the keys and told me good luck. And it was a lot of reading the manuals. And then I went to work for another company in California, which was California Boiler, which was a great company. I know you're.
linked with some of them on LinkedIn here. I mean, that is probably the top tier company in California. And I got hooked up with a guy there, Craig Brodin, and he really taught me like control. So it was a lot of on the job training, a lot of like we discussed their night reading manuals. But it was
pretty much just kind of figuring it out. I did get sent to some training schools, know, like Autoflame and you know, people would come in, Fireye came in and gave us a little two day crash course. Like I said, the PLC stuff, I kind of learned on my own. Really nobody kind of offers that unless you want to go to school. So yeah, I paid a lot of money and
did an online course and it's kind of just been a lot of in the field training and.
you know, figuring stuff out.
Eric Johnson (17:32)
How many years after you started in the boilers did it take you to get to the point where you could walk into a boiler room or walk up to a boiler and be like, all right, I got this. Like, I understand what's going on here versus, okay, that's pretty quick.
Matt Legault (17:49)
I'd say about four years.
You
Eric Johnson (17:56)
that
Matt Legault (17:57)
So that, well, I
mean, to actually like learn the boiler room, I mean, like we're talking like, you know, knowing what, you know, steam traps are doing, knowing what a, you know, a Spencer regulator was sending steam to a DA tank, like all that, you know, I mean, the whole boiler room. Yeah, it was, it was about four years. I mean, like I said, looking back now, I can't, I mean, I'll never forget my, my very first service call was it was a bad flame scanner.
And it took me eight and a half hours to diagnose that. And I laugh at that now because I had a bad flame scanner call like three weeks ago and it took me five minutes to diagnose it.
Eric Johnson (18:39)
Yeah, unfortunately, your hourly rate or like billing doesn't take into all that experience. And now the customer goes, β that quick? You're going to send me a bill for what? Why is everything so expensive? And it's like, well, know, if you've gotten somebody else out here, they literally could have taken eight hours to diagnose it. And you've been like, wow, that was a really complicated problem. Good thing they sent you out, man, eight hours.
Matt Legault (18:53)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (19:09)
β because most of the time, know, only one problem or one problem per person. So if the customer doesn't know any better and the write up is pretty decent, a problem that took somebody two days to fix could also be fixed in two hours, depending on the person. And that's really the struggle with mechanical and tech and service technicians is yes, the hourly rate
Matt Legault (19:32)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (19:39)
kind of does prove the quality of the company. If you're hiring an industrial boiler company for 50 bucks an hour, you're probably not gonna get anybody that even knows what a boiler is. But if you're paying 300 bucks an hour, that doesn't also guarantee that you're getting an expert who can troubleshoot a boiler proficiently. And that's with anything mechanical, but...
Matt Legault (19:49)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (20:07)
Yeah, that's definitely as you go in, I always talk about the difference between walking into a boiler room and you see pipes and chaos versus walking in and you see systems. And once you can walk in and see systems, you've got it. Not that you know everything, but you, it's like seeing the matrix and you can walk in and you're like, all right, I got this versus walking in and like, oh.
Matt Legault (20:18)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (20:34)
so nervous, I don't know what anything is, I just see pipes and every sound is, and I find that with a lot of newer people, they're just overwhelmed by the amount of information. And then you'll get the experienced folks like you who walk in and they're like, β customer's like, β I've, I don't know if you've seen this before, you know, we had a pretty old boiler and you're like, I got it. It's whatever, they're all the same.
Matt Legault (21:00)
Yeah, well, no, mean, I would even say you run into that a lot with say you walk in and look at a little, you know, 100 horsepower Hurst with a Power Flame burner on it compared to walking up to a 75,000 pound an hour water tube with a registered burner on it. mean, I had one of my mechanics on that startup. He was asked me, what is all this stuff? And I was like, well, that's, that's the fuel oil system.
And he's like, do we need to hook that up? And I'm like, no, they don't have fuel. Like, yeah. I mean, like just to even look, you know, the difference in just looking at the boiler, even compared to the system can overwhelm people. And I mean, I've seen it, you know, I've, I've, I've experienced it. mean, it's funny because I still get calls from the technicians I worked with in California and Texas. And so you're talking.
nine years now since I've left California, four years since I've left Texas, and they'll call me and yeah, they just get overwhelmed. And it's like, you know, hey, take a step back, take a deep breath, calm down and look at what you're dealing with. And yeah, cause yeah, every, it seems like everybody wants to get in and get out. Everybody wants the quick fix, you know, and of course the customer does, especially if the plant's down.
But you know, what we do, I mean, it takes time and you know, you got to actually find the problem because I, I worked, I've worked and still work with some guys. They'll take apart. They'll be like, Oh, look at that. I know we don't have that in stock. We got to order that I'm out of here and they're gone. And it's like, so then I'll get sent out there with that part.
And of course that's not what the problem was. And now the customer's looking at me like, you know, what's up? And yeah, so.
Eric Johnson (23:05)
What do you think makes a great service technician versus an average one?
Matt Legault (23:12)
I think a guy that's going to actually go out there and diagnose your problem. And, you know, sometimes it's not going to be an answer they want to hear. β but I think it's a guy that actually knows how to work on the controls, work, work on the boiler and the guy that's going to be honest with the customer. β
I've run into, like I said, you like I just mentioned, I've run into plenty, plenty of times where I go out and replace a part or I don't even replace the part. I just do a little bit of, you know, diagnosis myself and realize that's not really the problem. β I think in my opinion, like if I was the customer, like, know, when I have somebody come and work on something at my house,
dog and one of start barking today. β I want somebody that's going to be honest. that's, that's what's important to me. β no, there's a lot of other aspects to it too. I mean, you gotta be good at paperwork. You gotta be good at, you know, receipts and you know, expense reports and this and that, but like in the field.
If it was my equipment, I would want somebody that's honest and I would want somebody that actually knows what they're doing.
Eric Johnson (24:31)
But what qualities from a human standpoint, so if a company lines up 10 service technicians and they say these are the qualities we are looking for, because I'm always looking to define, because people are like, this person's great, this person's not. And theoretically, if we dug deep enough, we can find qualities that make great service technicians.
Matt Legault (24:42)
Okay.
Eric Johnson (25:01)
versus ones that make average. And I would say a great service technician would also be great at any other job that they do,
really. But what do you feel that like, you're sitting in an interview process and somebody says, I got 15 years boiler experience. Most companies are like, β great, great, hire them. What questions do you ask or what do you look for that says,
Matt Legault (25:11)
Yes. Yeah.
Eric Johnson (25:28)
this person actually knows something versus they've existed for 15 years.
Matt Legault (25:34)
Yes, so that's a great question because I like experience years of experience in my opinion don't matter if they're bad years of experience, you know, like I always make the joke, you know, I, know, me and my wife have been married for nine years. I can say, know, I've been married for nine years. I'm great at sex.
She'll turn around and tell you I'm not. you have 10 years of experience, but you've been doing it wrong for 10 years, you don't really, I mean, yeah, okay. You have 10 years of experience, but it's not good experience. So that's where I think a lot of these companies, they really need to start hiring young guys, electricians is my opinion and building them up.
And that's what I'm trying to do with my company. And I'm fighting with my company right now is that way we already have the technical experience. Now, as far as making a good technician, you know, obviously you have to have people skills. You have to be able to work well with others. have to ha you have to be able to handle pressure because when you show up on a service call and a plant is down and they're losing, you know, $50,000 an hour or a hospital is down.
you know, what you know, somebody doesn't have heat, whatever it is, they're going to be on your back. And they're going to be asking you how long, how long, how long, how long. I've been there, done that numerous times. So you have to be able to handle that. You have to be able to. While you're handling that effectively work and troubleshoot something
This industry is a funny industry because I've been out on service calls that say like two, three o'clock in the morning and you know you're on your own. Like if you get confused on something, there's probably not anybody that's gonna answer the phone. Where see like I'm a guy, I answer the phone. If one of my guys calls me, if I hear it, I'm gonna answer it because I hate that lonely feeling.
I've gotten to a point in my career where not a whole lot confuses me. And if it does confuse me, I'm usually talking to the factory and it usually confuses them. it's a steadiness under pressure. know, it's performance under pressure, you know, which co-coalates, you know, with the fact that we're making steam, but you have to be able to stay calm and
Try to work through a problem when kind of everything's on the line for your customer is, guess, what I'd say.
Eric Johnson (28:18)
What do you feel like your experiences outside of work, maybe in your childhood, growing up, whatever, has taught you the ability to stay calm under pressure and to think under pressure? Because that is a big item. If you can't make decisions under pressure without consulting other people, you're going to struggle. But I've found that that's...
You can't really teach that, it's kind of experience. And I'm always looking to see what kind of prior experience or like maybe childhood that people have had that.
They've just like, well, you know, I was kind of thrown into high stress situations or I bought a truck for a thousand bucks in high school and I just had to fix it because that's all I had to do and I couldn't afford somebody else to fix it. Do you have any experiences like that?
Matt Legault (29:17)
yeah, so I grew up playing baseball. My family was a huge baseball family. because was sophomore in high school, I got into umpiring baseball.
I was still, so I played through high school, but I did a ton of umpiring and I got to the point where I was actually umpiring college baseball when I was about 20 years old. So I was umpiring guys that were older than me. I actually was going to go to one of the umpiring schools that you go to, to go into the minor leagues to become a major league umpire.
I didn't want to sink $5,000 into a this might happen. But I was umpiring basically daily, multiple games a day. And for a lot of the time, guys that were players that were older than me. So that kind of β puffed up my skin really quick.
Eric Johnson (30:24)
was, I don't know what the dates on that was, do, was that, have parents started yelling at the umpires at that point?
Matt Legault (30:33)
Oh yeah, I literally, I had to eject a pair of grandparents from the stands because they said if this was Columbia, we'd string you up.
Yeah
Eric Johnson (30:45)
Yeah,
that's wild. that's, you talk about a dichotomy. Youth sports has swung to the point where parents are like, are 10 year olds going to make the pros and you're the umpire that's going to screw over their dreams of making the pros and they're screaming. It's like, ma'am, your son is 10. Like we are playing on a Saturday afternoon in a public city park.
Matt Legault (30:48)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (31:14)
This is not going to be the difference between them making the MLB and them not. Like, it's going to be okay. Like, yelling at me when I'm a volunteer, I'm tired, getting paid 10 bucks an hour and I'm 18. It's going to be okay, but a lot of parents live through their children and they think that they can influence the world by screaming at other people.
Matt Legault (31:24)
you
Yeah, yeah, no. So
we always used to have a nice little saying that the biggest problem in youth sports is the adults. Because. Yeah, because I because so my first job was actually working for the city parks in the town. Well, my first job was actually umpiring, then I got hired as a rec leader.
Eric Johnson (31:48)
That is very true.
Matt Legault (32:02)
working at the park. So I was like, you know, the little guy that was at the park, you know, and I can't tell you how many fights I had to break up and everything between adults at youth sports events. It's, it's like, are you kidding me?
Eric Johnson (32:16)
I know I already asked this, but how did you get into electrical after high school versus like what was your decision of, I know your father did HVAC, but.
Did you consciously say, I want to work with tools or did you just kind of fall into the, hey, this is kind of the easiest job to get versus I want to go sit in an office.
Matt Legault (32:39)
Well, so actually, one of the guys I umpired with who he kind of became like my new dad after my dad passed away. β he actually was, he worked for a company that was the general contractor for the electrical company that I went to go work for. And he just said one day he was like, Hey, you know, they're looking for a guy. It's a material driver and they're willing to pay at the time. I think it was like 25 bucks an hour.
At the time I was making like, you know, 20 bucks an hour and I was a young kid. So I was like, Oh, cool. That sounds fun. And then just working for them. I was like, well, you know, was looking, you know, I would go drop off material over all these different job sites and see these electricians and they were all driving really nice trucks and everything. And I was like, Hey, let's give this a shot.
Kind of basically money motivated, you know, being a young kid. And I just knew college really wasn't for me. mean, really all I was interested in college was, was history. I'm a huge history guy and kind of, just thought to myself, know, yeah, go get a history degree. And what am I going to do with that? Become a teacher. I didn't want to be a teacher. So
Eric Johnson (34:01)
Yeah. So, do you ever interview people?
What, do you have any interview tips or how do you determine that 10 years of experience is a good experience or bad experience? What questions or methods do you use to?
Matt Legault (34:20)
So
when I interview technicians, β my first question is obviously, are you willing to work any day and around the clock? Because that's the one thing I've run into, especially with these younger guys nowadays, is they don't want to work. They don't want to work overtime, or they don't want to work a weekend. But then I'll usually go after people. β
You know, I'll ask somebody like, you know, do you know, you know, what controls do you know? And, know, if they tell me a Fireye I am like, okay, you know, what does L1 to three mean? What does 3P interlock mean? I mean, I literally, cause you know, this is what I deal with every day. So it's like, you know, I know off the top of my head with 3P interlock means, you know, it's probably an airflow switch or if they put the gas pressure switches in that circuit,
Or if you could just tell me that, okay, the limit circuits made, but the interlock circuits not made. Yeah. Or if you tell me, know, I know AutoFlame. I'm going to ask, you know, what does P15 open mean? You know, if I do get a guy that comes to me with a PLC question or, you know, claims to know PLCs. I mean, I actually just had a guy a couple of weeks and I was like, can you explain the difference between a digital and the analog output? And he couldn't.
He gave me this long rambling speech and I was like, that is so not right. So I mean, now on the mechanical side, see I'm not much, I, I've honestly never even seen anybody in the amount of time I've been doing this. I've never seen anybody roll a tube. Never seen anybody cut out a tube. β I actually do quoting and stuff, but I refuse to quote mechanical.
There's I don't know, mechanical at all. I quote straight up tech work. β and when I first started quoting it, I even asked them, I'm like, how am I supposed to quote this? Like, do I quote it for how long it's going to take me or how long it's going to take say cliff? Cause cliff it's going to take two days. Me, it's going to take six hours. And they're like, quote it for the longer time.
So, but yeah, I don't interview mechanical. I stick to the tech side. I'm yeah.
Eric Johnson (36:57)
And once somebody is hired that is say newer and has the drive but doesn't have the knowledge, how would you get them to the knowledge as fast as possible and correctly as possible? How would you recommend or suggest companies do that versus
throwing on the keys after two weeks.
Matt Legault (37:28)
I wouldn't throw them the keys until...
until I would say they're ready to go. And I've done that with a few guys and it's been hit or miss. I'd say I probably have about a 70 % success rate on guys riding with me for a while. β Like I'm talking up to like eight or nine months. β
that still are in the field. mean, I got one guy actually just got promoted to a service manager position at California boiler that I brought in green as hell as an electrician. I love training people. I mean, when I, when I first started the guy I rode with, he told me he wasn't even going to train me because he said, you're going to end up taking my job, which to me is laughable at this point, because there's more jobs than people in our, in our field.
But I would say, mean, it's hands-on training. β I know you don't like in the field training, but I think in the field, hands-on training, like you either be in their back pocket or be in there to help them. And then, like, I mean, my laptop is almost completely full of just manufacturers' manuals.
And I hand those off to everybody. Like, I mean, I have zip drives and stuff that if you give me your computer, I'll put my manuals on there. have, you know, combustion spreadsheets and stuff that I've made that are pretty detailed, you know, Excel spreadsheets. And I give those to my guys. mean, they literally will calculate a curve for you. So like when you go to do a startup, you're not guessing, they'll calculate on the fuel.
You just have to match the air FGR. If you have it, you know, it'll calculate actually calculate the VFD two for you all, you know, linear functions. But, you know, I try to equip the people I work with as much as I can because that just my life easier. And, you know, if I'm not, if I'm the only one that knows how I'm not one of those guys, if I'm the only one that knows how to work on this, then
I'm not the one that's going to get called out on it all the time. I'd rather everybody knows how to work on it and let's teach everybody how to work on it. β yeah, they've had me this company build training, β modules for a Fireye and Siemens. I'm trying to get them to do Autoflame but they don't want to buy it. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm the guy that's like willing to train. So that way I'm not the only one that knows it.
Eric Johnson (40:14)
What does a training module for Autoflame and Siemens look like?
Matt Legault (40:19)
So we have a little 50 horsepower hot water boil β fire tube Hurst And I mean, you're talking a little small Power Flame burners that you can literally change them in and out within like five or 10 minutes. They got like hoses and stuff for the gas and yeah, it doesn't take much to change them. And then you just got to hook up the cables. I have them all wired up and plugged.
So you just have to basically plug them in and they have the, have the different control panels over there. So it's literally, you could, you can literally switch it out within like 10 to 15 minutes between control systems. Obviously the boiler state is put, we're basically just feeding water into it and dumping water out into the parking lot. And then, but they don't seem to care about that. So.
Eric Johnson (41:14)
β What do you think the best way is to teach people parallel positioning systems, especially when they may not see them enough to kind of grasp them enough. I see a lot of people will go to a two day training and then they don't see the system for six months.
Matt Legault (41:33)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (41:36)
they've already forgotten everything at that point. What do you think is the best way to teach people parallel positioning so that it actually sticks?
Matt Legault (41:45)
So I approach that in two ways. First off, I teach them obviously how to build a curve. So I have like, so the way I build a curve is it's 10 points. don't, you know, I'm not one of those 25 points guys or anything. It's 10 points. High fire is always going to be 55 % open on your fuel control valve. You go and set your regulator at that point. that's why I'm a huge proponent of Autoflame because they make you go straight to high fire.
when you're building your curve. So what I teach my guys is you got 10 points, know, high fire is 55 % open on your fuel. Say low fire is 12 % open. So you take you subtract 55 from 12, you divide it by nine because it's always one less curve point. And then it'll give you a number say, you know,
throw a random number out there like 3.7%. You increase your fuel valve 3.7 % all the way up that way it's linear. Now you got your fuel. You just match your air match your FGR. You know, so simple as that. Now as far as the different control systems, β I give them the manuals and I teach them how to navigate the manuals. And you know, I mean, because so
Case in point, like Fireye, so like when I worked at California Boiler, we didn't run into a lot of Fireye, but we were doing burner retrofits like crazy. So when I worked there, that's when they went from the sub 30 NOx to the sub nine NOx. So we were replacing everybody's burners So like every seventh or eighth retrofit, you run into a Fireye PPC 6000 I would always have to have the manual.
you know, because I have them all on my computer. I would always have to kind of like look at the manual because like, like say like with the Fireye PPC 6000 when you put in the ignition point, you got to hold down the next button for three seconds. Well, I would always just hit the next button and be like, why isn't it lighting off? yeah, that's right. You got to hold it down for three seconds. It says that in the manual. The Fireye manual is very easy to navigate. Now, like Autoflame is not.
Siemens is pretty good. but I literally, I mean, I, my best suggestion is just give them the manual, show them how to go navigate the manual. And I mean, I, cause I have cheat sheets on my laptop of, know, what pages are the important pages in the manual for the different controls, you know, so I'm not having to hunt for it, but I mean, also too, it, it. β
California boiler, β our top technicians, they had a little phrase they always used to tell us, which is RTFM, read the F in manual. β But yeah, that's, mean, kind of basically, I mean, that's what it is. mean, the manuals, I mean, yeah, they're not gonna give you a password, but they're gonna tell you how to navigate them as long as you can get into them.
Now I've also, you know, had to fight my way through CB Hawks. I've never worked for a CB rep, but I've learned CB Hawks just on fighting through them on my own and some help from some buddies that worked for CB. And I mean, they all kind of work the same to a point, but you know, it's also, I mean, it's kind of trial and error and, you know, figure it out.
Eric Johnson (45:33)
Do you think somebody who only learns on the job can be a good service technician?
Matt Legault (45:38)
Well, mean, depending on their personal qualities, yes and no. β If you only just learn on the job, if you just learn how to work on boilers, you're never dealing actually with a customer face to face. Yeah. You could be a good service technician, but when, like I said, you know, like we discussed earlier, when you're actually talking to people face to face, I mean, you know, like this job I was on last week, I got thrust into
I had two project managers and a job foreman and we were all of a sudden doing a job walk and my boss told me, oh, you're just going down there to wire up a VFD. And all of sudden, you know, I'm doing the job walk with a bunch of guys, you know, dressed a lot nicer than I am. Yeah. So you definitely have to have the personal skills. if you're just going to go out there every day and
not have to talk to anybody or maybe just, you know, if the only time you talk to somebody is to go get them to sign your work order, then yeah, but no, I mean, you definitely have to have a personality to do this job. You know, and it's a certain type of personality that, you know, some people have and some people don't.
Eric Johnson (46:49)
Yeah, you said earlier that you went home and read manuals and were pretty driven. The people who want to come in clocking at seven leave at three thirty and shut off their brain till seven the next day. Can they succeed doing that or do they have to do extracurricular work outside of that?
Matt Legault (47:08)
Okay.
Eric Johnson (47:12)
and go home and maybe read a manual for an hour or go to a training class.
Matt Legault (47:21)
I think that they can make it. I don't think they're going to succeed. What they're going to be is they're going to be your sub par tech. They're going to be your guy that goes out there and will get confused sometimes and pull the rip cord. mean, you know, we, you know, mean, my buddies, have another, you know,
phrase that we call some of our guys parachutists because they go out and pull the rip cord. And guys, I've seen it all across the country that people get away with that. β Just because our industry is so short staffed that you can go out and say, yeah, I know there's a problem. I can't figure it out. Send Matt. And it's happened to me throughout my career.
Yeah, you can, you can go home and just not even think about boilers, you know, not do like what we're doing right here right now. And you can make it because our industry is so short-staffed. But if you actually want to be good at your job and make good money, then you need to put in the work it's, it's just like anything in life. It's, know,
How good do you want to be? How hard are you willing to work? You know, I mean, that's, that's kind of what it boils down to.
Eric Johnson (48:42)
What are your thoughts on training classes? Should all training classes be 100 % paid by the company and 100 % paid for the employee's time? should it be 50-50? Or if the company says, hey, we're gonna host a seminar Saturday morning, if you guys wanna come in, great. If not, great. But.
You know, this is gonna be for try to help people, but you know, also we're not paying you. This is optional or do you just, everything should be a hundred percent paid. If you're getting better skills, the company should be paying you for it.
Matt Legault (49:25)
So I'm 50 50 on that. I think that the company should pay for it. I think that the employees should be paid. β Now I've had the luxury of going to five Autoflame trainings. And I'm not trying to knock Autoflame, but I mean Fireye did the same thing. Weishaupt did this. I mean, they try to cram so much into so little time.
You know, you literally just get walked through on a simulator on how to simulate a curve. It's like, you know, like we were talking about earlier. mean, they throw so much information at you in such a little amount of time that you don't really get to absorb it.
Like from a company standpoint, my opinion, I don't think they should be sending anybody to something that they don't rep. Now, like say like if my company was the Autoflame rep, I would be sending all my guys to an Autoflame class, even though I just said it's a waste of time. But if we're going to come out here and claim that we're factory trained, I would, you know, send them there. Now I would also love to get with Autoflame, you know, because like I said, that's the one I've
spent the most amount of factory trainings with just because we were the Autoflame rep and I used to have to set those guys up and take care of room, take them out to dinner through the week. So. β
I would like more time. Now that's AutoFlame's decision. That's not my decision. And that would be a company decision too, because obviously, you know, throwing an extra day or two, because, you know, I mean, they run it through in like three days. But, and then one of those days is their whole pitch on the, Limpsfield Burner. And it's like, well, I didn't send my guys to learn about the Limpsfield Burner. I sent my guys to learn about AutoFlame, especially when I was in California, because
Limpsfield doesn't do a sub nine burner. don't need my guys learning about Limpsfield burners when we can't even sell them out here. β but I personally think that they should be longer and yeah, companies should pay and the company should also make sure that, you know, maybe there's like a test or something at the end of it, that this guy learned something at least, or retain some information and
You know, yeah, I mean, I'm all for that training, but I think they just, everybody does it so quick. And then like, like you said earlier, I mean, then you don't see it for a few months and it's gone.
Eric Johnson (52:10)
What do you say to managers who send their service technician to a class, say Autoflame, it could be anybody, and say, hey, we have a startup in two weeks, we're gonna send you to this class, and after the class, they have two weeks, yet the employee comes out after the class and says, I didn't learn anything, or they go to the startup and say, I don't know how to do this. What do you say to that manager?
Matt Legault (52:37)
I would say one of two things because something I left out of my my answer on your last question
So those trainings can be a little discombobulating just because sometimes I've noticed this, I'd say actually about 50 % of the time you get a lot of operators in there too, not service techs. So they get focused on a lot more because they're gonna be the end user. So you don't get the actual full commissioning training. Now,
Me say me as a manager, I would look at my technician and be like, how can you not know how to do this? Why didn't you ask questions? Why didn't you, you know, cause I know what you're, I know personally what you're going to learn in that training. You know, I've read the brochure or I've talked to somebody or I've been to the training. They do teach you how to commission in the training. Now it might not be say like what you and me would sit down and teach somebody on a commissioning basis, but.
I would look at my technician and be like, why didn't you ask more questions? Why didn't you do this? Why didn't, know, I mean, as a technician, you should be going there and trying to learn as much as you can. Now, if you're there with operators and they're dominating the training, that's when you need to pull somebody aside on the training group and be like, look, I got some questions. Yeah. I don't need to know how to change set points. I already know how to.
I want to learn how to commission this. want to know how to do the EGA or the O2 trim or water level control, you know, whatever, you know, something that's not going to be covered. Cause like, know like, so when I went to the Weishaupt training, I'd already commissioned hundreds of Weishaupt burners And I basically stood in the back with the guys and just was joking around them. were, you know, shooting the shit and telling war stories, but I had questions for them and
Those questions got asked because, know, and they even told me that like, yeah, you know, this is not stuff we handle in the training because you're asking the advanced questions. And I'm like, yeah, well, you know, this is the stuff I've run into in the field that kind of put me in a bad spot or confused me or, you know, didn't work like.
You know, what do do when you get this? You know, what do you do when you get this? Like, I don't need to know how to set up a light off position. I already know how to do that type deal. yeah, if you, as a technician go into a training, you should go in with questions and get those questions answered.
Eric Johnson (55:16)
Also, on the technician side, what do you say to the tech who has zero experience with Autoflame and doesn't even know enough to ask questions? And this could be anything, we're just talking about Autoflame, so that's what I said, but they have zero experience, so they don't even have enough experience to even ask the question, and they've never...
been on a service call at 2 a.m. by themselves and actually found out what they're made of and they may not have a whole list and they sit through the training and they get the certificate that says now they're factory trained yet then they go in the field and they're like I don't know how to do anything
Matt Legault (55:51)
you
I mean that that that's that falls on the tech I mean that's gonna be initiative so I mean To tell you a story so I used to work with a guy that I work with now at a different company young kid β and He got sent out on a service call, so he was working for the company I work for now
But I wasn't working for the company then. I was working for the company that we used to work together at. And he got sent out on a Fireye PPC 6000. And he'd never even seen it before. So I spent a good majority of the day on the phone with him. I emailed him the manual and we fought through it. And he installed a new servo and recommissioned it. So it can be done. It's just a matter of
You know, like we went back, we discussed earlier, don't get overwhelmed. Don't get, you know, don't say I can't do it. You know, luckily this was during the daytime. wasn't 2 a.m. Now, like you said, I mean, yeah, I say you get out there at 2 a.m. I mean, if you've been through the training, you've at least gone through the control.
You should have the manual because usually they always give you the, you know, a zip drive or they'll email you a PDF copy of the manual when you're at the training. that's just one of those ones where you got to fight through it. mean, I, I, I've heard multiple people in my career say, I've never done this before. I'm not going to go do it. And I'm thinking to myself, it's like at least
three or four times a month I get sent on something I've never even done. I read the manual and I figure it out and do it. So yeah, I mean, I guess where I'd go with that, mean, I'm a little, I guess cold hearted where, you know, I kind of tell people you need to read the manual and figure it out. But I will also, you know, talk people through it and,
not stuff in the manual that you need to know that will make it a lot easier. if you've gone through the train, you should at least know how to navigate the control. As I guess what I should say.
Eric Johnson (58:17)
Do you teach somebody linkage and then parallel positioning or do you just start them off on parallel positioning?
Matt Legault (58:24)
That's a good question. β So when I got into this, it was I got lucky because there was still linkage. They're just starting to come out with the parallel positioning.
Teaching linkage is an art form and that's why you're making that's why you got your little simulator behind you β I Still get guys calling me all the time asking about linkage and like I tell people I'm like that's not something you can really explain over the phone I mean I I could tell you how to you know Move everything all the way to the top and it'll fast travel move everything all the way to the back You know the drive to the back the driven to the front
little slow travel, try to find your sweet spot. But I mean, that's geometry. You can't really explain that over the phone. β Even out here in Alabama, we're starting to get to more of parallel positioning. Still running into linkage. It's like if I was still in California, I wouldn't even bother teaching somebody linkage because they don't have linkage out there anymore. Like here in Alabama and Texas.
I would teach them basically as we run into it. You know what mean? One day we might be on the Siemens, the next day we might be on a Power Flame, you know, yeah, with linkage. The next day we might be on a Fireye the next day we might be on an Autoflame. Next day we'll be back on linkage. I don't think knowing linkage helps you with parallel positioning or vice versa. Linkage is an art form.
Eric Johnson (59:57)
Do you feel like somebody who learns on linkage first understands better the relationship between air and gas and what actually happens and what they read on their combustion analyzer versus somebody learning parallel positioning and you just type in numbers randomly on a computer screen?
Matt Legault (1:00:15)
would say yes. β Understanding linkage would help you because you understand the difference in you know, the air moving faster than the gas or vice versa. And I would even go further than parallel positioning is what I would say when you get into the PLC programs, you have to cross limiting. And you know, that air can't move faster coming down or the gas can't move faster going up.
if you don't know parallel positioning, you're not going to get into the PLCs. mean, cause I mean, basically they're parallel positioning, but they're just a lot more complex. β but I would have to say yes, just because you have to understand that, you know, you can't be jamming the fuel and not moving the air or vice versa.
to not create dangerous situations.
Eric Johnson (1:01:12)
What do you think makes a good boiler service company or boiler company or boiler group versus beyond just have more people who know what to do?
I like to equate to NFL teams. They all have the same money, the same players, essentially the same coaches. All the roles are the same, but why are the Cleveland Browns sucking and the Kansas city chiefs winning multiple super bowls when they all have essentially the same opportunities.
Matt Legault (1:01:45)
Okay.
I would say it's management. It's management that kind of fuels the work ethic of your people. β I've worked at some companies, the management is awful and we got great people. And I've worked at some...
Eric Johnson (1:02:11)
What makes awful management or good management?
Matt Legault (1:02:14)
So it's like the micromanaging and the non-managing. Um, so like the company I used to work for, this guy was a micromanager on certain things. And then on other things, there was no management at all. was like, I'd go in every day and he wouldn't, you know, I'd be there at 7 a.m. like I'm supposed to. And he wouldn't tell me until 9 30, what I was doing for that day.
and then he'd load up my day with like four different jobs and create a 15 hour day for me. And then I'd go in the next day and there would be no work. But at the same time, I'd be turning in work orders. now this guy was a sub.
like maybe a mid-level tech. Like he didn't really understand much of what I did because I was more controls, but he would nitpick what I did on the job sites. Even though the customer was perfectly happy. And it's like, what are we doing here? And like now, they got me on this job and suddenly it's having to be done by next Monday.
And I requested help because I have to wire up basically wire up two boilers, gas trains, controls, VFDs. And they're like, we don't have anybody to help you. But then I just saw on the schedule that half the guys are on service calls next week, which means they don't have any work for them. And it's like, okay. And nobody can tell me when my electric, all that electrical material I ordered is going to be here.
Eric Johnson (1:04:00)
So communication you would say is the biggest factor.
Matt Legault (1:04:03)
Yeah.
Yeah. Communication is.
Eric Johnson (1:04:06)
Do you feel that management has to, what level of...
understanding of Boilers in the industry. Do you feel that a manager? has to have because ideally Everyone's like well our manager should be you know the top tech or whoever and really that's not who really makes a great manager and You just don't have enough field experience to go around but what level of experience makes a manager that's good versus
Matt Legault (1:04:29)
Yes.
Eric Johnson (1:04:38)
I don't know what you guys are doing like go do whatever as long as we're making money thumbs up.
Matt Legault (1:04:46)
when you get to like, like the level I'm at, if somebody's gonna be my manager, they should know more than me. Now the problem with that is now you're pulling a guy.
out of the field that we could be using in the field. So it's kind of a hit or miss. β
Yeah, I mean...
Eric Johnson (1:05:06)
Well, so like in most corporate companies, like a manager is gonna hire a data architecture person to manage a server or whatever data architecture. That manager just has to manage the project and not actually understand data architecture better than the person, because then it's like, well, why are we hiring you? And I'm of the firm belief that
Matt Legault (1:05:23)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:05:35)
You know, lot of technicians or blue collar people love to believe that their managers have to be very, very well experienced technically. And I don't think that's true or can even be done in today's world. Cause just for the reasons that you just mentioned. β but it's trying to find the line of how much do they have to understand versus their
Matt Legault (1:06:02)
So,
Eric Johnson (1:06:05)
their job which is actually to manage your chaos and everybody else's chaos and to manage the customer's chaos and all that stuff which doesn't
Matt Legault (1:06:11)
you.
Eric Johnson (1:06:16)
actually require field boiler experience and to know how to set a curve on an AutoFlame system and all that other stuff.
Matt Legault (1:06:25)
Yeah,
no, I I agree with that. mean, if you can manage people, that's, you know, that's a talent in itself. where I get frustrated is it's like when I tell somebody, hey, I need help or hey, this is going to take longer than
Eight hours and they just don't want to listen to me or because for the most part, I can usually get jobs done a lot quicker. I've been doing this a while, but when I come back to you and say, Hey, you know, like, mean, this job I'm currently on, you know, they're, they're fighting back and forth with me because it's down in New Orleans. live in Huntsville, Alabama. So that's an eight hour drive for me. So I'm asking them like, Hey, can I just drive down there?
On Sunday, that way I'm on the job site. First thing Monday, instead of driving down there Monday, losing a day. And they're like, well, have to think about that. And it's like, well, you know, the customer wants this thing running by next Monday. And I got a lot of work to do here. And, you know, so to me, that's like, if one of your technicians is
coming to you and saying, you I need to do this to, you know, I need to do a to accomplish B.
I would think you would say, okay. Now I would say that knowing boilers and being in the business would help you make that decision a lot better. You know, if you don't have the knowledge, you should just say, okay, right off the bat. And then, you know, over time, I would definitely look at that and make sure that somebody's not, you know, stringing you along or, you know, BS in you. But at the same time,
You know, you could, you know, there's other people in the company you can go to and be like, Hey, you know, Matt's saying this. What do you think?
Eric Johnson (1:08:23)
And on the technician side.
Do you think tech, how much of a tech, a good technician needs to be self-management? hey, I am on this boiler startup and I need this, this and this. I'm gonna fix this, this, this, this and this versus, I don't know, I need materials. I called our parts department and they're now handling it.
is how much, where do you draw the line between self-management versus that's out of my purview? Because I found that.
the best technicians are the ones who can self manage a job and report to maybe like a project manager and just say, hey, these are outside of my control. You need to deal with this, but I have dealt with everything else versus, I don't know, the gas train's not wired. So you need to figure that out, but my job is startup and it's not wired. So I don't know what you want me to do.
Matt Legault (1:09:02)
you
Yeah.
Yeah, no, no, I mean, I think I mean, obviously, our job is 100 % self managed. β You have to be an independent worker. And you have to be good at doing that. β I mean, like I said, my on this job, my boss basically told me that I was wiring up a VFD, I get down there, there's two boilers, VFDs aren't even mounted. And I got to wire up everything. I made I mean,
right off the bat, made an extensive material list. And then they came back to me like, what do you think? Why do you need 300 feet of conduit? And I'm like, because I gotta wire all this stuff up. No, I mean, our job is 100 % self-management, but you do also have to report back to people. I do have another boss that I report back to now. He's, you know, he was a good tech.
but he's gotten to management, so he kinda, you know how it goes, that once they get into management, they kinda forget how the field works. But no, he came back at me with that, and I was like, well, I gotta wire up this, I gotta wire up this, I gotta wire up this, I gotta run this, this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And okay, but yeah, you definitely need somebody in the management space that,
kind of has an idea of what's going on because I could have called in and said, hey, I need a roll of 300 feet of four gauge wire. And I could have been one of those people that just throws that in the back of my truck and takes it to the scrap yard. Yeah, because I have worked with people like that. β Now, I'm not a person like that. That comes back to the morals and everything of being a good service tech, of just being a good person. But β
You know, obviously as a manager, you know, he would come back at me and be like, why do you need four gauge wire? Cause I don't need four gauge wire. mean, the blower motor is only 17 amps.
Eric Johnson (1:11:29)
teaching technical is hard enough. How do you teach service technicians, communication and interpersonal skills so that they are good technically and also good with customers and on job walks when everybody else around them is in suits and ties.
Matt Legault (1:11:47)
so.
Really have a good I guess just that would be like, you know, on the job in person training, like when they're with me. β I think that's just something you personally have to have. β
Eric Johnson (1:12:05)
So a lot
of great service technicians just want to be left alone and want to do their own thing and are not great communicators and are probably not extroverts. So they're introverts. They're not super talkative. And to a customer who's like, hey, I'm paying a $40,000 bill. I want to know what's going on. And I talked to your service technician and he just kind of looked at me and said a couple of words and was like, I replaced this and this and it's fixed.
and I was kinda hoping for more, like, what is more important, the technical side or the communication side? Because at the end of the day, a great communicator makes the customer feel great versus a technician.
Matt Legault (1:12:50)
Yeah, no, no, I mean,
yeah, I get what you're saying. I mean, I don't know. mean, if that's if that could really be taught because actually, like some of the best people that I've learned for are very extrovert. They're very or not. I'm Invert. They're very not friendly. You know, they're like those like weird geniuses that don't know don't have very good personal skills.
but they have managed to make it. Now me, I'm like 50-50. Like there's times I wanna be left alone, like especially when I'm trying to figure something out, I'm trying to troubleshoot something. I don't need you on my back asking me every five minutes, like what's going on, what's going on, what's going on. You're gonna frustrate me, it's gonna take longer for me to fix it. But when I'm done, I'll stand there and shoot the shit all day long. β
I honestly, I don't know if that can be taught. I think that's just more of like a character trait of people. Like I said, cause like literally the smartest people I've worked with in this industry are not very personal. And they're actually hard to deal with even like as a coworker, let alone a customer basis. I don't know, they find a way to make it work.
or they're dealing with somebody above say like the on-site operator or somebody in a lower level management, maybe they're dealing with somebody in a higher level management that understands them or can get along with them. But yeah, no, mean, like the guys that have taught me the most in this industry are not very personable people.
Eric Johnson (1:14:40)
What do you do right now for, or what have you even done in the past for service reports and
how important is like a service report, like the actual writing on a service report, how important is that? Because I have a, one of the top 10 complaints from managers is my technician will go out there and say, part changed, boiler fixed, boiler running.
Matt Legault (1:15:09)
Yeah, so I'm extremely detailed. β like currently what we do is we have, I forget what it's called, but we have this service report that we fill out on a tablet. My personal favorite is I write up a whole Word document and I take pictures and I'll, β
Like if I go out and change an airflow switch, I'll usually write like at least a three page report on Microsoft Word. Now on this tablet thing, it's a little harder to get to type it up and everything. So I do get a little less descriptive. But yeah, no, I don't write a report like that. I I know exactly what you're talking about, but I'm usually the guy that will write like an eight or nine page report.
And I tried to explain to my guys like, so when I worked at California boiler, I actually had an incident where we had a rental boiler on site and they had jumped out. They first jumped out the auxiliary low water and then they jumped out the entire limit circuit and then they turned their feed water pumps off. So I'm sure you can understand how well that worked out. β It was a boiler and you know, those black
front doors were glowing red and they melted the McDonnell Miller. So I show up on site. Well, they tried to, they tried to put it on me and I wrote up a huge report, took a bunch of pictures, got the guy to sign it and they still tried to blame me. Well, this ended up going to court. So California boiler actually brought all of us, all of us as technicians in and sat us down. We had a meeting with a lawyer.
And the lawyer basically explained to us, this is how you need to write your reports from now on. So like, you know, I used to write trip tests and safeties and controls, found everything good. Now I write trip tests, a low gas pressure switch, high gas pressure switch, low water cutoff, high water cutoff, auxiliary low water cutoff, know, draft pressure control cutoff, furnace pressure cutoff. You know, I literally list in my report on top of having a
a separate report that is my safety and device combustion report. where I indicate everything that I tripped, everything that I tested, what pressures they were at, set at, what pressures they tripped at. I mean, know, paperwork is paramount, especially in this industry to, you know, cover everybody's butt.
Eric Johnson (1:17:38)
Where do you draw the line of we're just service technicians and we're out here to fix it versus we're writing potential court evidence and we need to cover every single base on every single service call no matter what you do?
Matt Legault (1:17:39)
you.
So if it's not safe, I will tell the customer it's not safe and I will tell the customer I'm not I'm I'm not going to leave it running and I will write my report if this unit continues to run. I literally use these words. It will potentially cause extreme damage, personal injury or death. You know, I use those legal terms and I make sure that they sign it now. Unfortunately, when I walk away,
If they want to turn it back on, is what it is. It's their piece of equipment. It's their liability. You know, but I explained to them extremely strongly that you should not be running this. Like this is bad. β yeah. So, I mean, I, but I literally write those words and I've, I've lost count of, you know, unfortunately of how many times I've had to write that in a report and
is I'm walking out the door, I hear the boiler firing up and it's like, you know, somebody's going to get hurt
Eric Johnson (1:19:00)
If you tell your customer they're going to die and they still turn on the boiler, that means that they actually don't believe what you're telling them. How do you get them to understand and like say, Hey, what I'm telling you is true. And you probably won't die, but you know, there is this serious risk of injury, serious. It's mostly you're probably going to have an expensive bill and, and they
Matt Legault (1:19:25)
Yeah, yeah, that's.
Eric Johnson (1:19:28)
directly ignore your recommendation. It's essentially they're not hearing you because if you tell somebody, if you get in your car, you're going to die. And they're going to be like, wait, why? Like, why should I not get in my car and drive? Like, how do you know that? And they might, but do you feel like it's just pressures from managers above them of like, get that boiler running or you're fired?
or do they just not trust you or trust service technicians in general and say, they just want money from us? What do you think it is?
Matt Legault (1:20:06)
I think it's a little bit of both. think it's definitely pressure from above because they're the actual operator, but when they have the guy that's actually, you know,
paying the bill or, you know, is the upper management. They only see a bottom line. You know, they don't understand that the boiler is actually dangerous. You know, they don't understand that it's a control bomb. And then I would say too, I mean, usually the operators will listen to you, but yeah, they're, they're at risk of, you know, yeah, that manager is going to tell them, you know, we need the plant running or, or you're fired.
You know, at that point they, they take the calculated risk and, honestly, if I, if I actually came across something where, if, if they turn that switch on, it's going to blow up or something and kill them. I probably wouldn't even leave. You know, I just kind of throw that language out there to, extend to them. Like this is the risk. Right.
This is what we're dealing with and we need to fix this You know, like you said 90 % of the time, you know it's not they're gonna flip the switch and it's gonna blow up and kill everybody but You try to explain to them like, you know, this isn't a small little tube leak This is something that needs to be addressed like right now
Eric Johnson (1:21:30)
Do
you ever contact your state boiler regulators and say, hey, we have an unsafe situation, you should probably send somebody?
Matt Legault (1:21:39)
I
never have. The only instance I've really run into that is usually they'll already be there on site during an annual inspection. And we're all seeing the same thing. it's like, I've never actually made a phone. I've never had to. I've never felt the need to.
customers usually trust me enough to work. Like if I tell them like, Hey, this is bad. They'll they listen to me. mean, you know, you do, you do get the customer occasionally that thinks, this guy's just trying to sell me something. β but usually like when I tell a customer like, Hey, this is, this is bad. You know, I I got enough gray in my beard now that people
People listen to me a lot more when I was younger, you know, I did have people question me a lot more, but you know, they tend to listen to me now and I've worked, you know, I've worked at a lot of these places long enough that, you know, they trust me and know that what I'm telling them is pretty much, you know, the truth and, you know, so.
Eric Johnson (1:22:56)
Do
you β use water or digital monometers? And do think people need both or one or the other?
Matt Legault (1:23:04)
I use digital just because I was honestly never taught how to use a Slack tube manometer. I was always just handled digital. So I have about nine different Dwyer digital manometers. So I got one that's zero to 20, I got one zero to 40, and then all my other ones are zero to 200 that are personal. And then I got about 200 feet of that.
monometer tubing that you actually put on LinkedIn and you're the man because that is the best stuff I've ever had for McMaster Carr
Eric Johnson (1:23:39)
Yeah, yeah, go
on Boilern.com and go to the articles and you'll find it the best manometer tubing ever field tested by me and other people. I've only ever.
Matt Legault (1:23:50)
β no,
no, I literally have like two to 300 feet of it. Like I ordered it as soon as you posted that. Hell, like what? A year and a half ago.
Eric Johnson (1:24:02)
Yeah,
I post it like every six months or so, but it doesn't, know, nobody ever tells me when they order it. And, but then I'll like randomly, like they'll post the picture and I'll see the, cause it's got a very, if they order the colored, it's got a very distinct color to it. If they order the, red or the blue and I'm like, they ordered the hose.
Matt Legault (1:24:19)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:24:25)
You can tell them, it's good to like 390 degrees. And you're like, well, you what are we doing? It's like, well, you know, if you run it past the hot, you know, front of a door and you just have like normal manometer hose or it's running past the stack, like it can sit next to something that's hot. And if it's rated for 390, it's not going to melt at 391, but it's probably rated for higher than that. But I've never had it.
Matt Legault (1:24:30)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:24:54)
like crack, I've only had it crack when I've dropped something on it and it literally like cut it, but it's very flexible, but it also holds up and versus like what you get, a lot of people just use the hose that comes with their digital monometer. And it's like, I think the hose that comes with Dwyer monometers, if you look at it, it'll kink and.
Matt Legault (1:25:11)
Yeah, latex stuff.
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:25:19)
It's like, all right, like just save yourself the four pennies it costs to put in this and just don't even include it because it's so worthless. But then it's also like three foot long and they're trying to take measurements and especially on a water tube boiler where everything's larger.
having these little sections of hose just gets very hard to deal with everything. And then they may go to Home Depot like, I need longer hose. Well, they'll probably get a rubber hose that if it's below 40 degrees, you can make a ladder out of the hose because it's so stiff.
Matt Legault (1:25:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, they buy that clear shit or that latex stuff that Dwyer sends you. and then, you know, like you said with the temperature, I mean, if you're taking furnace pressure readings, you know, I mean, I carry, you know, I carry my little manometer bag, you know, not little, it's actually a pretty big bag since that's what those manometers, but, know, I have a...
eighth inch and a quarter inch ball valve and nipples and stuff because so I'll shut the ball valve off after I get my first pressure reading you know that way it's not sending all that heat into the manometer because you know those manometers aren't cheap
Eric Johnson (1:26:40)
Yep, yep. So you heard it here. Go to boilern.com and unless you want to buy, and I think I said it in the article, but unless you want to buy a thousand foot roll straight from the manufacturer, McMaster-Carr has the cheapest price and you can buy it in lengths. Yeah.
Matt Legault (1:26:58)
Yeah. No, no, no. I got them all. Yeah. got,
I think I've ordered it like, so I actually think I have about 400 feet, um, cut into small, you know, small sections. And then I have a couple that are, you know, I just left alone that are really long, but no, I've ordered it like four times. So, and that stuff.
Eric Johnson (1:27:17)
Do you
share the knowledge with the people you work with or do you just let them struggle?
Matt Legault (1:27:22)
Yeah, my company actually,
no, my company actually just ordered a thousand feet of it. A couple of weeks ago, I saw it at the shop.
Eric Johnson (1:27:28)
Yeah.
That's great. a, that was, and this will go into my next question, but that was one of the things when I first started like.
Matt Legault (1:27:33)
Yeah, so.
Eric Johnson (1:27:41)
Yeah, everybody knows you need a wrench and a pipe wrench and this stuff, but it's like, what is the stuff that's like not on the list that makes your life easier? And I quickly found out correct monometer hose and like the assortment of fittings and valves is like the key between a good day and a very frustrating day. Especially on a startup where you're taking β
Matt Legault (1:27:56)
Yeah.
Yes.
Eric Johnson (1:28:11)
Lots of pressures. I made up a like a manifold block. You use a pneumatic air block. It's got eight valves in it so that you can use eight pressure points to one manometer. β But.
Matt Legault (1:28:24)
Yeah, I
I got the same thing. It's great for like Raypacks and Lochinvars and stuff like that.
Eric Johnson (1:28:31)
Yeah, so what other
tools or something that do you have that you're like, this is essential or makes my life easier or hey, I've wired up this thing that does this, that saves a bunch of time.
Matt Legault (1:28:49)
So I would say, I mean, for me, it's more like technical stuff. So I bought the Fluke, I think it's the AC2000, but it's the clamp at milliamp meter.
Yeah, because see, I deal with like a lot of transmitters and stuff. So that way you don't got to break circuits. β Then obviously having a zero to 10 volt signal generator. Having, you know, different electrical leads, especially small electrical leads. You know, like the surgical pinpoint ones that will get into these small terminals that some of these manufacturers are making now. Go grab it.
It means.
Eric Johnson (1:29:32)
It's
Fluke 771 through 773 are the clamp. It varies by staging, I...
Matt Legault (1:29:40)
So
you're looking at a different version than what I have.
Eric Johnson (1:29:43)
Okay.
Matt Legault (1:29:44)
I know what you're talking about though.
Yeah. The one I have is it's yeah, that one's a lot more expensive. Yeah. Mine's like the AC something.
Eric Johnson (1:29:56)
Alright, so proper electrical meters, anything mechanical wise, example is I have is when I was doing service, I had a quarter inch ratcheting wrench that was like German made and it was kind of expensive for what it is, but that little thing could fit into anywhere and it had like 70 to 90 teeth and you could put a little bit on it and
or a little socket and you could do some very great things in tight spaces with that little wrench and I used it all the time.
Matt Legault (1:30:34)
Yeah, yeah,
so like mechanical wise I would say so like like
Allen wrenches I carry the the Wiha β I always carry ball end because ball end is the best because you can get in there at an angle but the Wiha they are a little more expensive but they are magnetic. So that's very helpful. β
Eric Johnson (1:31:00)
Do you
buy your own tools?
Matt Legault (1:31:03)
Yes.
Eric Johnson (1:31:04)
Do you supply everything or just like hand tools?
Matt Legault (1:31:08)
I pretty much supply everything except for the truck and the analyzer.
My kids are grown and I don't really have much much to spend my money on anymore. So yeah, I I got all my own tools. I prefer the Milwaukee 12 volt power tool because they work perfectly fine. Now, obviously for my grinder and my large impact, I have 18 volt that the company supplies that you know, they don't sell a 12 volt grinder. I'm hoping they will one of these days, but
yeah, no other than that. I pretty much supplied everything.
Eric Johnson (1:31:45)
What kind of vehicle do you drive?
Matt Legault (1:31:45)
I've worked
Ford F-250 for now until it breaks down again.
Eric Johnson (1:31:53)
Do you like a pickup
truck versus a van?
Matt Legault (1:31:57)
Yes, I prefer the pickup truck, but my company prefers vans and they've already told me the next vehicle they're going to get me is going to be a van.
Eric Johnson (1:32:06)
Why do you like a pickup truck?
Matt Legault (1:32:09)
It's just more comfortable and then especially here in Alabama with the wind and everything. mean, those vans I've ridden, I had to ride with the guy for a couple of weeks. My truck actually broke down and β man, that wind pushes those vans around on the highway.
Eric Johnson (1:32:31)
What does a normal week look like to you? Are you like traveling within the state? Are you just driving everywhere or?
Matt Legault (1:32:43)
It
all depends. like last week I drove down to New Orleans, which is eight hours away and worked there for two days and drove home yesterday. You know, obviously week before that Christmas, it was pretty light. The week before that, I was all over the place. We actually, we drive more than we work.
I make the joke to my wife all the time that I'm a truck driver that occasionally works on boilers. Because we service, so we're based out of Birmingham, Alabama, but we service Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida, Illinois, North South Carolina. and we drive everywhere, we don't fly. Now I've worked for other companies where we flew, which makes it a lot easier, but
also makes it a little bit more difficult because obviously you can't take as much tools and stuff with you. I'm probably going to be leaving out of here on Sunday, driving back to New Orleans and I already warned my wife I'm probably going to be down there for at least two weeks because I still got to wire both these boilers up, β get them fired, get them boiled out and then do commissioning.
Eric Johnson (1:34:01)
Do you follow the manufacturer's boil out procedure or do you have your own concoction and method that you do yourself?
Matt Legault (1:34:11)
Uh, so that's like 50 50. Um, on this one, I was told to use Tide which I've done that before. Um, usually I'll use either that or like it. at California boiler, we would always just go get a trisodium phosphate from Home Depot. Um, but a lot of the places too, they'll, they'll have the chemical guys supply the, uh, the boil out chemicals and then kind of give us some instructions.
This one's gonna be kind of interesting. I'm gonna have to talk to my boss about it it's a hot water system. Two big Unilux's So was like, we just boiling out the boiler or are we boiling out the system or like, how's this supposed to work? But he already, I kind of already brought it up to him a little bit and he told me Tide
Eric Johnson (1:35:00)
Is it normal for you to boil out a hot water boiler?
I've heard of companies just, what's the point? A little bit of oil in the system doesn't matter since we're not making steam.
Matt Legault (1:35:12)
Yeah, the last hot water system I started up, which was about two months ago, the chemical company, the water treatment company, they just injected chemical into the loop and basically monitored it. And yeah, so yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:35:29)
When you're
boiling out a steam boiler, do you remove the safety valves?
Matt Legault (1:35:35)
I do not know. I usually will pour the chemical in through the man way gasket. I will start to get it hot, put the man way back in, get about, I usually like to get about two to five PSI on it and then let it sit overnight. And then we'll drain it, flush it, change all the gaskets out, handholds, know, McDonnell Miller, everything, and go from there.
Eric Johnson (1:36:03)
Why do you change all the gaskets?
Matt Legault (1:36:06)
Uh, so in my experience, I've found that the cut the, the, uh, manufacturers, first off, they send out usually the wrong gaskets. they'll send out those like blue maxes and stuff. And those aren't going to actually hold when we actually put the thing online. And plus, you know, if we are using something other than Tide.
you know, if we're using trisodium phosphate or an actual boil out chemical from a water treatment company, those will eat the gaskets up. So we don't need, you know, you don't want hand holes and stuff blowing out. So.
Eric Johnson (1:36:46)
How do you know, I've never even heard of using Tide. Wouldn't that like bubble too much?
Matt Legault (1:36:51)
Okay.
Yes, it bubbles a lot. That's why I put the man way back in, but it basically binds to the oils. And so when I first started doing this, you know, 18 years ago, that's how we used to do it. And apparently people still do it that way. Like I said, the California boiler room, we started using trisodium phosphate. You can buy that at a Home Depot. They actually sell it in a liquid form now.
It used to be a powder. So you had to like mix it in a bucket. It was a whole, there was a nightmare, but β it's, β I guess the Tide just binds to the oil. It's, I guess it's the old school way of doing it and it's the cheap way of doing it.
Eric Johnson (1:37:41)
How much do you know about water treatment?
Matt Legault (1:37:43)
hardly anything. I've kind of stayed away from that. People ask me, I mean, they actually asked me at this job I'm on that I was on in New Orleans. I'm going back to, they asked me like what the conductivity should be. I mean, I know what conductivity is. I've installed surface blow down, you know, conductivity meters, stuff like that. But as far as like what kind of chemical and everything they're supposed to be using, yeah, that's.
Eric Johnson (1:37:46)
So.
Matt Legault (1:38:11)
That's not my job.
Eric Johnson (1:38:12)
So on a service call where they're like, hey, the boiler doesn't stay online and the little water cutoff is intermittently tripping and you go there and you find that the boiler is priming and the water's just bouncing, is that like a, just call your chemical company kind of call or do you?
Matt Legault (1:38:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So usually what I will do is I'll blow it down a lot and see if I can't rectify the problem. Um, and then usually, yeah, it's kind of like, got to get your chemical guy out here. Um, I'll, I'll even try shutting the chemicals off. Yeah. And tell them like, you really need to get your chemical guy out here because you don't want to be running more than a few days with these chemicals shut off. But I mean, I do know enough.
to know that yeah, if your chemicals are off that your water level can bounce and do all that kind of fun stuff. And so, but yeah, as far as like knowing like how much chemical, what kind of chemical, I'll go look at the chemical pumps, make sure they're not running nonstop. They're running like they should be, you know, because those are usually tied into your low water cutoffs and stuff like that.
more and more we're running into modulating feed water systems where they don't have a good way to control those chemical pumps. So they're either injecting the DA or I have wired a couple of the Siemens modulating feed water valves that has the little limit switches in it that'll turn it on, you know, like say 40 % open or
Eric Johnson (1:39:57)
what is or what are some key points for some newer service technicians to make a boiler startup go smoothly.
Matt Legault (1:40:07)
I would just say, know, keep in a level head. Don't get overwhelmed. Don't try to be doing too many things at once. β You know, just start with the basics. I I've run into so many times where, know, you get some customers that...
aren't there and then you get another customer that wants to be in your back pocket and be like, you got the pilot valve shut. And I'm like, yeah, I know. I got to test to make sure that there's no spark pickup or they'll go over there and open it themselves. Or I mean, I've even had some of my mechanics do that. But no, it's just, you know, go take the steps and, you know, don't don't try to get in a rush. And then, you know, like we discussed earlier, you know, like and
I mean, I can even email you my combustion seats. You know, you could take a look at it. I mean, it's pretty good. I mean, it even makes graphs and stuff. But like I said, just having a game plan because I've seen so many boilers, like I've come across to go do like a tune up on them and you know, like low fire, let's say on the fuel, just the fuel will be like 12 and then the next points 13, the next point 14, the next point 15, the next point is like 29.
36 and then we're you know, 41, 42, 43. And it's like, no, you need to build a nice stable curve. Um, you know, like, like we discussed earlier, I mean, I think my way of doing it and a lot of people do it this way is, know, you have a roadmap. So, you know, especially if you have a load constraint or something, you know, you know, a lot of these places don't have a steam dump or you can't dump hot water.
You know, you have a nice little roadmap so you're not just dumping points and you can actually move up
God.
Eric Johnson (1:42:05)
do any
prep work before you get on site?
Matt Legault (1:42:09)
yeah, no, I always make sure that I have the wiring diagram, the boiler and burner manuals. you know, luckily I was able to get, finally get the wiring diagram for this Webster burner. And obviously you can get the boiler and burner, you know, manuals online. So, but you know, I've started up tons of Unilux's and a bunch of these Websters. So yeah.
That's not a big deal. But no, I like to go in there being informed and knowing, you know, what's what I might be running into and what's going on.
Eric Johnson (1:42:50)
if you could make any changes to the boiler industry as far as developing people or the processes of how we go about things, do you have anything on your wish list of like, hey, I would really like this to happen or I think this would really help people.
Matt Legault (1:43:05)
Okay.
I don't know how much time we have left, but... β
Eric Johnson (1:43:18)
We don't,
there's no time limit except whenever you want to wrap this up. I know we're coming up on two hours, but yeah, there's no time limit. I'm just.
Matt Legault (1:43:28)
No, I mean, you
know, there's, there's a lot of little things here and there. There's, β I, I, I would like to see just more training. β I would like to see this. This trade actually getting started to get taught in school, just because, you know, I mean, we're losing a lot of the people that know it, on the mechanical and the service technician side.
You know, used to be all these guys came out of the Navy and they got trained in the Navy, but the Navy doesn't use boilers any.
You know, so you have operators that don't know what they're doing. got, I mean, you know, I remember when I first started that we called them boiler makers and they knew boilers like a boiler maker would, you know, when I first started, that guy would go out and do an annual and fire the boiler back up. And now we have mechanics that are basically just glorified welders that they're like, what do you mean I flipped the switch? What does that mean? And
I just wish there was a lot more training. Cause you know, like I said earlier, this is a dying trade that the work isn't dying. It's the people that are in it are leaving, are dying. You know, it's, it's.
Eric Johnson (1:44:44)
What
makes good training?
Matt Legault (1:44:46)
I mean, I guess it just has to be, I mean, it's on the job. It's, know, it would be, you know, I mean, like I said, I built these training simulators and they talked about putting the mechanics on it with me. Cause I trained our techs on it, on how to, you know, put a curve in there. Obviously I'm not going to teach her mechanics how to do that. They don't need to know how to do that. They don't carry analyzers, but,
me showing them like how to reset a manual low water, me showing how to reset gas pressure switches, you know, if the control says this, check this. You know, I don't need them to know full on troubleshooting, but you know, at least know how to start a boiler back up.
Eric Johnson (1:45:28)
Do you have a troubleshooting process that you follow for every service call?
Like when I walk into the boiler room, I check these things no matter what. Like if it's a steam boiler versus a hot water boiler, you know, just to like grab my bearings and then I will do this and then I talk to the customer and then I do this and then I do that. And then I, you know, not.
Because I have this thing that's you know it's basically every service calls the same the variables just change I didn't know if you I didn't know if you had like a particular process that you say you know hey new person When I walk onto site, this is what I do and you should probably do this as well
Matt Legault (1:46:00)
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it all depends on what's going on. Um, you know, if you walk in there and it's a flame failure, obviously you're going to go to the basics. You know, I mean, if it's a pilot flame failure, you're going to run after the pilot. Um, you know, if it's, you know, Fireye 3P interlock, you know, you're going to look at those devices, then I always like to check everything over because I hate getting called back. I hate that.
Oh, it ran for an hour and a half and then it's doing the same thing. mean, I hate that. So I'll usually, you know, I come and go after the main problem, you know, get that diagnosed and fixed. And then, you know, I'll definitely look at the boiler. I have a general rule of thumb that I'll, I'll literally stay for at least an hour, no matter what time of day it is just, you know, walking around the boiler room, you know, because.
At that point, that's when you can kind of start selling stuff. Like I said, I'm not a salesman, but you know, I'll be like, hey, you know, got a leak here or you got this going on and that's going to cause a problem in the future. You know, and, you know, look at some other stuff and just make sure that what you diagnosed is actually fixing it. you know, kind of go from there. mean,
Eric Johnson (1:47:29)
What
problems do you see that are most common that lead to expensive repairs that customers typically ignore?
Matt Legault (1:47:41)
So here in Alabama, it would be leaks and water treatment.
Which I probably...
Eric Johnson (1:47:48)
Do you see a lot
of scaled boilers?
Matt Legault (1:47:51)
Yes. Yeah, we have a place here in Alabama every year when we open their boilers up, they ended up end up getting retubed.
Eric Johnson (1:47:59)
That's just crazy because...
Matt Legault (1:48:02)
Yeah, 300 horsepower Cleaver Brooks and every year.
Eric Johnson (1:48:04)
Maintaining
a water softener is one of the most basic things you can do and yet people were like, β we're spending 50 grand on a retube every year. β okay, that makes sense versus let's spend five grand for somebody to make sure that we have salt in our brine tank and our water softener works.
Matt Legault (1:48:22)
On a water softener.
Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah, no. I
mean, you know, we like, don't know how much work you've done at refineries. I've done a lot of work at refineries and you know, it's a common saying that they make dollars. They don't make sense.
Eric Johnson (1:48:44)
Yeah, I mean, it goes back to the customer education thing of it, of it makes sense to us because we see it all the time, but the customer may not actually understand why a water softener is so important. Even though that seems ridiculous, that is like, Hey, like this thing, cause they, know, customers have their own problems that they're worried about in their own managers that are
what they're worried about and if we as boiler people can say hey we're worried about this but the boiler room may just be one of 15 rooms that they're worried about and they're trying to deal with all this stuff and stuff slips through the cracks and that's really where partnering with a boiler company that
in a water treatment company that can handle and say, and you know when they're on site or taking care of your boiler that things are just handled on the customer side versus I have to oversee everything. I have to make sure that they're doing everything correctly and having a solid steam system with clean steam and great water treatment is key for a long life of equipment. But unfortunately that doesn't.
Matt Legault (1:49:44)
you
Okay.
Eric Johnson (1:50:05)
It seemed to happen too often, it seems like.
Matt Legault (1:50:09)
Yeah, no, mean, that's one of the things that's always blown me away is β corrugating plants. Like, if the boiler goes down, the plant's down. Yet, I've only seen one corrugating plant in my life in 18 years of doing this that has more than one boiler.
Eric Johnson (1:50:30)
Yeah, the math worked out that, hey, we can buy one boiler and it's enough steam. Why would we buy two?
Matt Legault (1:50:30)
And then, and then when that.
Well, and then they usually run the hell out of them. Like, I'll never forget this one place. I mean, it was a 1500 horsepower Hurst It was like one of the biggest Hurst I've ever seen. Fire tube. And I mean, this thing literally sat in high fire all day long.
Eric Johnson (1:50:59)
Yeah, I would imagine also that they have steam traps blown right through and if they fixed all their steam traps that boiler would modulate down.
Matt Legault (1:51:04)
yeah.
Yeah, and this was in California. So in California, you literally have to have a gas meter, individual gas meter on every boiler because of the emissions. And that boiler has to be high fire and they come out and check. The state comes out and checks it. They have the air quality management district. They come out and check the boiler. It has to be within 80 % of its rate. Like, because what people started doing is they started, you know,
downrating their boilers to try to get under the NOx rules. Well, the state got wise to that and they were like, nope, you have to be within 80 % now. If that boiler is rated for 20 million BTUs, you you got to be at, I don't know, I can't do that math in my head, but you got to be at 18 million. And they literally come out and clock the meters. So it's not like we had this thing under fire.
Eric Johnson (1:52:04)
Yeah.
Matt Legault (1:52:05)
I mean,
it's crazy, but let me ask you a question. What's your preferred combustion analyzer?
Eric Johnson (1:52:13)
in general is the one that works best for you but β i mean i only have experience with an ecom d and Seitron and e instruments i know e instruments is no more but the Seitron nova i believe it's a good light duty analyzer but i really
Matt Legault (1:52:17)
Thank
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:52:40)
When I was at service tech I spent most of my time with an Ecom D which I really liked. The probe was great. Also the extendable probe where you didn't have to change the hoses. A new probe just kind of latched onto the top of it and the pump super quick.
went to my phone great, could make a great report. I know they have reporting software now that you can attach a laptop to it. I've never worked as a service technician in the state with NOX requirements, so I've never done like hourly testing and all that stuff. I know that some people do, but yeah.
Matt Legault (1:53:25)
touchy shit in California. used to have to do 15 minute testing.
Eric Johnson (1:53:29)
Yeah, I mean,
it's different for what people want. Some people have permanent combustion analyzers and it's constantly testing. It differs, but the combustion analyzer, the big thing is can you get service and can you get it quick? And Ecom service is decent or good from what I...
Matt Legault (1:53:43)
Yeah. Yeah, so.
Yeah. Yeah, so yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:53:58)
I've experienced and β there's another company out there.
Matt Legault (1:54:03)
Testo. Testo is good. Yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah, most of my experience was with the Ecom and Testo. We have the Seitron here where I'm working now. And I mean, it's a good little analyzer, but it just takes so long to respond.
Eric Johnson (1:54:03)
that is testo that yeah.
Yeah, if you, especially if you get a longer hose.
Matt Legault (1:54:24)
And I don't
even have the longer. β
Eric Johnson (1:54:28)
Yeah, and that's a selling point or like a buying point. And it may not make sense to a manager, but the difference between... β
how fast the pump in the analyzer, like the sampling pump for everybody listening, and how quick it pulls the sample from the tip of the probe to the actual analyzer body and goes through those sensors and then spits out a reading on the screen. If you have a quick analyzer, I use Ecom but...
Matt Legault (1:54:47)
Yeah.
you
Eric Johnson (1:55:10)
Ecoms aren't quick per se. There's no quick analyzer. It's just what is the rating of the pump? It'll say, I think most pumps are rated in like leaders or whatever it is, but it's a volume.
Matt Legault (1:55:20)
Yeah, leaders per foot, think it is. Yeah. Yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:55:27)
Whatever you're buying in your combustion analyzer, they're gonna say the volume. And if you have a technician that works...
with a combustion analyzer for a year and they have that same analyzer and you're like, hey, we got to send that in for calibration. Here's this other one. And it works fine, but it has a slower pump. They will immediately know, especially if they're doing linkage adjustment on and be like, why is this thing so slow?
and it is night and day difference even though it may just be a small number on a brochure. So that is definitely something you should think about when you are buying a combustion analyzer is how fast is the pump?
Matt Legault (1:56:15)
Yeah. Yeah. No, because that's, that it's very important. So it's not as important on a water tube per se, because I mean, I've always been taught and the way I still do water tube is I literally will let that, you know, say I'm moving from 10 % to 20 % on firing rate. Um, I'll let that thing sit there for five to 10 minutes before I even start making adjustments. And I'll let the
let it sit there for five to, you know, five to 10 minutes again, after I make an adjustment. But like you said, like on a linkage burner, say you get it to like 20 % fire rate and that thing drops down to zero and you're like, Ooh, I'm going to take it back to low fire and you know, make an adjustment on the linkage. need that thing to react a little bit quicker. Where the, the, the Ecoms and the testos do the Seitron It just, it takes a while.
Eric Johnson (1:57:06)
Yeah, it's...
Are you using the full touch screen? the Seitron
Matt Legault (1:57:12)
No.
Yes, but I actually I use it on my on my phone with the app but I put my phone literally right next right next to it so
Eric Johnson (1:57:25)
Yeah, I didn't know what model you were using because the Nova is really there.
Matt Legault (1:57:31)
It's a, yeah, no, it's a Nova. I think it's like a Nova Plus even, but.
Eric Johnson (1:57:33)
Yeah, okay.
That's their kind of flagship now that it's a great analyzer, but when you get onto larger boilers, it can have some shortcomings, not because it's a bad analyzer, just because the pump and β just the available lengths of probes and the lengths of hoses and the amount of sensors, there's just, but.
Matt Legault (1:57:41)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Eric Johnson (1:58:06)
Also, the next
analyzer to step up will also be five grand more. it's, you know, it's not like we're comparing apples to apples. If you are in the price range, I think they're only like 17, 1500 bucks. the Seitron Nova analyzers are great analyzers for the price. But if you're like, hey, we want to step up to the next thing, you might be spending three to four grand. And then if you're spending,
Matt Legault (1:58:12)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (1:58:32)
β An analyzer for the suitcase analyzers like the J something something from Ecom you're looking at Yeah, they're like ten yeah ten plus thousand dollars and
Matt Legault (1:58:38)
Yeah, J2KN, about 25 grand.
Yeah, well see, but see you need those if you're doing the ultra low NOx.
Eric Johnson (1:58:52)
Yeah, yeah, and it comes
with what you need. you're in the wild west states that are just, I don't know, as long as there's not black smoke rolling out of the stack, it's fine. You don't need to measure NOx and you're essentially measuring combustion just to make sure that it is safe.
Matt Legault (1:59:03)
Yeah.
Yeah,
you're looking at O2 and CO. β
Eric Johnson (1:59:15)
So what does the next 20 years hopefully look like for you?
career wise
Matt Legault (1:59:21)
I just keep banging it out. mean, I guess one of these days are, I've already had two opportunities to be a service manager and I told them no, cause I don't know. I don't like sitting in the office. I love doing this. I love the work. love, I love the troubleshooting. β I'm obviously I'm getting into the more advanced stuff into the PLCs and stuff and learning a lot more of that. So, you know, maybe
getting into the program and everything, then actually designing programs, know, BMS and CCS programming. But as of right now, I am to the point where I make enough money, you know, I get paid enough per hour that, you I don't like the 80 hour work weeks anymore. You know, when I first started doing this, I was an overtime whore, but
you know, now it's kind of like, you know, more of a eight and hit the gate guy.
Eric Johnson (2:00:20)
everybody listening, while a management promotion may seem great and may come with a pay bump, it is not always a promotion, especially if you love...
dealing with your own problems and working with tools because now if you get into management like a service manager, which a lot of companies do, hey, know, this tech gets old and they don't want to be on the tools anymore, let's promote them to a service manager. Now you are now dealing with your problems and everybody else's problems and all of your customers' problems and in three months you will quickly understand that techs
Matt Legault (2:00:51)
Yes. Yes.
Eric Johnson (2:01:03)
that you were working with in the field that you thought were angels now just do the dumbest things, especially when you get customer calls and you're like, our tech did what? And you're like, how is this even, you told them what? And then you start questioning, you're like, what am I doing?
Am I even built out for this? No, just put me back in a truck. I'm going to go look at my combustion analyzer and go fix boilers. Somebody else can do this.
Matt Legault (2:01:25)
β
Most importantly, you go from getting paid by the hour to salary and usually end up making work in more hours.
Eric Johnson (2:01:43)
Yeah, working more hours for less and the...
Matt Legault (2:01:48)
β And the phone
rings a lot more. β
Eric Johnson (2:01:52)
Yep, yeah, but a lot of people, I mean, that's a common thing I see just in all blue collar stuff is this person doesn't want to do this anymore. Like they're really good at this. Let's promote them to this. it's, well, just because you're a great service technician and you're great at fixing boilers doesn't mean you're a great manager. Those two things are very, very different and most qualities of a great service technician. β
Matt Legault (2:02:14)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (2:02:21)
are opposite qualities of a great manager.
Matt Legault (2:02:24)
Yes. Yes.
Eric Johnson (2:02:26)
So, but that's. β
Matt Legault (2:02:28)
Or
you don't like sitting in an office.
Eric Johnson (2:02:32)
Yeah, and not all managers have to sit in an office, but at end of the day, if you get off the tools, you're gonna be doing computer work and paperwork. And if you don't like that, well, I don't know what to tell you because that's what the job entails. And you can't just like, β I don't know. I'm not gonna send this quote or not do this, not do that. Like it's...
it becomes a never-ending ferris wheel of problems and paperwork. Yeah, I mean, it's a totally different job. I'm not saying it's not doable, but you have to know what you're getting into. like I said, it's not always a promotion, even though they'll call it a promotion.
Matt Legault (2:03:17)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, mean, cause even like right now I kind of do, I don't even know if I would say half and half, but you know, they have me sitting in the office doing quotes and you know, I can bang out the quotes pretty quick, but it's like, give me out in the field. Like I don't want to be sitting here staring at a computer screen all day. And I actually just got our company digital to where we're not doing anything on paper anymore. And
I had to sit in the office for two days on a computer screen and you know, I came home and told my wife, you know, I'm like, I got a new appreciation for you because she sits at a computer screen all day. I'm like, I don't know how you do that.
Eric Johnson (2:03:58)
it's always easier to look over the fence and be like, oh, they have it so easy. But then once you hop over the fence and you're actually sitting in the seat, is, everybody has problem. There's no such thing as an easy job, especially in the boiler field. So got any other questions or any other topics? I.
Matt Legault (2:04:14)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (2:04:19)
I think we covered a lot here and you're very knowledgeable and hopefully people learn, especially newer people hearing somebody with experience, 18 years experience and working in multiple states and do you have any...
Matt Legault (2:04:31)
That's all me
My question for you is,
what do you think, like, my opinion, the best way to go about hiring people and getting more people into this trade is getting electricians, as far as service techs I how do you feel about that?
Eric Johnson (2:04:53)
Yeah, so there's also a big difference between a controls electrician and a I wire outlets electrician. So that's a distinction companies need to make. But I would say you have to get them early. don't unless somebody is seeking something different. You. If you have a 20 year electrician.
Matt Legault (2:05:01)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (2:05:22)
who knows PLCs and does controls and low voltage stuff. And I would say it would be like, why do you wanna make the change? Because most people that far in their career are kind of more settling out versus I wanna jump into something new. And a lot of the times if you're making a huge jump,
Matt Legault (2:05:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (2:05:51)
and you don't know anything, it's like, well, we can't pay you that rate because while you do know something, like you don't know boilers, but in a year, we could maybe get back there, like depending on like, you know, how fast you progress, but it depends on the person. And I would say if you have to talk somebody into it as far as, hey, you're an electrician, but have you ever thought of this? And they essentially...
Matt Legault (2:05:56)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (2:06:21)
decide by not saying no to you versus saying yes to you, there's a huge difference. They will be unhappy and not driven to learn. But if you present a career opportunity and you're like, hey, have you ever thought about this? And then you're like, β like that's cool. Like, yeah, like let's do that. I think you now have somebody that has a lot of potential who does understand, hopefully understands electricity.
to start with because most boiler problems are electrical driven, but you still have to understand.
Matt Legault (2:06:52)
I like to go get yep.
Eric Johnson (2:06:57)
Yeah, what is the environment around you and how all these electrical switches and components are working together? Even though you can read a wiring diagram if you don't understand sequence operations, you're going to struggle. But, you know, that's that's the that's the question. Is it better to teach a boiler person electricity or teach a electrical guy boilers?
Matt Legault (2:07:13)
I
Yeah, yeah, I, my, my personal opinion, it's teaching an electrical guy boilers. But my boss's opinion is vice versa teaching a boiler guy electricity. So
Eric Johnson (2:07:38)
I don't think there's a right answer, but I will say that if you hire somebody and they're like, I'm just a mechanic and I just turn wrenches and they get into the boiler field and they don't have any desire beyond that, you can't push them into, hey, you're gonna be a electrical troubleshooter because it is a, well, it's a totally different mindset versus I just get out my impact and just a uga duga all these bolts and.
Matt Legault (2:07:57)
I gotta learn.
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (2:08:09)
It comes down to so much of the individual and companies and management need to show opportunity to people but you can't force people into opportunity. You can push them but if you're like, I think you make a really good service tech and they're like, β okay, and then you start pushing them into all this work and they're like, I don't really want to do this. They're either going to quit or you have to change direction because
Matt Legault (2:08:21)
Yeah.
Eric Johnson (2:08:38)
It's not, not everybody, and this is a hard thing as a driven individual, not everybody wants to learn everything and get promoted and do more. And some people are happy working eight hours, knowing what they know, going home, watching football and drinking beer on the weekends. And if they, and if they don't do anything more than that, they're fine. Which there's nothing wrong with that, but.
Matt Legault (2:08:47)
Yeah.
Hmm.
I heard you.
Eric Johnson (2:09:07)
if companies tend to progress like, we need more experienced people, we need more experienced people, you need to learn more, you need to learn more. And some people just aren't cut out to be like, hey, I'm gonna crack open a manual and figure this out. Like that's just not who I am. But also on the flip side.
If you say that, then don't be surprised when you're not getting huge raises and all this opportunity because you turned it down. So it goes back and forth and it's not always the company holding you down if you're on the employee side. if you're on the employee side, β most companies, I believe, try to do the best for you as, you know, even just if you're a giant company like your manager.
Like most managers are not like, I'm out to get and screw over all my employees. if you do come across somebody like that, it's super easy to get a new job, but.
Matt Legault (2:09:58)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, you I'm living proof that you if you learn boilers, you can go pretty much anywhere. I would say even in the world and work on them. mean, like, you know, we we've said it. I've said it multiple times. You know, it's a it's a dying trade that's not dying.
Eric Johnson (2:10:24)
Any closing thoughts for all the listeners out there?
Matt Legault (2:10:29)
I just say, mean, if you're not into boilers, it's a great trade. Get into it. We need y'all. There's not a boiler company in this country that's not hiring. If you're willing to do the work. And I mean, you can attest to that. You can back up what I'm saying. I mean, you look at LinkedIn, Facebook. I'm sure you follow the boiler guy page. I mean,
I feel like it's every day that somebody's, anybody know any technicians? Yeah, so it's a great trade. know, yeah, they'll work you to death sometimes, but you're gonna make good money and you can take care of your family and yeah, we need good people.
Eric Johnson (2:11:12)
Amen to that. Well, thank you for coming on the Boiler Wild podcast
